Energy Saving Gadgets - Do They Work?
Energy Saving Gadgets - Do They Work?
by zzsstt » Mon Nov 30, 2009 1:35 pm
I have recently been looking for ways to cut down on my energy usage, both domestic and commercial, and in this process I have come across several gadgets that make great claims.
Some of these "gadgets" are well known and have a great deal of data and experience to prove their efficacy. Double glazing might be placed in this category.
Some of these gadgets have a rational scientific reason to suggest that they are likely to work. Power factor correctors and VFD's for electric motors might be included here. Even more straightforward are powerboards with one big "OFF" switch.
Some of these gadgets have a recognised certification program to provide some degree of assurance that the device will work. "80 Plus" certification of computer power supplies is an example here.
However there seem to be a large number of products that have minimal explanation of how they are supposed to work, and yet still make grand claims for their abilities. Many of these products are sold by "seemingly" reputable companies, many specialising in "green" products.
In the case of electrical products, I have a PowerMate and can therefore test to see if a product lives up to it's claims. but I still have to buy it before I can test it. Some of these gadgets are quite expensive, which is fair enough if they work, but not if they don't.....
A case in point here is the "Reegen Micro-Plug". It costs just under AU$200, but claims to save upwards of 30% of the energy usage of an electric motor (and therefore fridge, washing machine etc.). This device is being sold by various "green" companies who vouch for its efficacy, but Choice awarded it a 2009 "Shonky Product" award and said it did nothing. There is a degree of sense to such a device, in that power factor correction is indeed real, but that does not prove anything.
How are we supposed to know? A 30% saving is well worth having, but a $200 hole in my wallet with no result is not! "Choice" themselves are not always totally reliable, however. They have been known to get the wrong end of the stick from time to time, for various reasons.
Personal opinion is also open to question. After spending a wad of cash on an item, it's sometimes hard to admit that it doesn't work, as this is effectively an admission of being "conned". It's also true that personal opinion can just vary between individuals - I find LED lights to be useless (too little light) for anything except mood or accent lighting, but some people seem happy with them.
Does anybody know of a central repository of wisdom, based on testing and experience (not marketing) of "green" products? Alternatively, is anybody interested in starting one? It wouldn't be that hard to do. If 20 people each donate $10, a (for example) "Micro-Plug" could be purchased, tested and the results published . If it doesn't work it's only cost everybody $10, and if it works we can all rush out and buy them........ If the results were published only to people who have donated, then further donations could be used to purchase more gadgets to be tested, or indeed gadgets to test (light meters, for example). I suppose this is where "Choice" started, but it seems to have got rather large and politically motivated, where I am thinking of a smaller far more directed ("efficiency") group.
Any thoughts?
Some of these "gadgets" are well known and have a great deal of data and experience to prove their efficacy. Double glazing might be placed in this category.
Some of these gadgets have a rational scientific reason to suggest that they are likely to work. Power factor correctors and VFD's for electric motors might be included here. Even more straightforward are powerboards with one big "OFF" switch.
Some of these gadgets have a recognised certification program to provide some degree of assurance that the device will work. "80 Plus" certification of computer power supplies is an example here.
However there seem to be a large number of products that have minimal explanation of how they are supposed to work, and yet still make grand claims for their abilities. Many of these products are sold by "seemingly" reputable companies, many specialising in "green" products.
In the case of electrical products, I have a PowerMate and can therefore test to see if a product lives up to it's claims. but I still have to buy it before I can test it. Some of these gadgets are quite expensive, which is fair enough if they work, but not if they don't.....
A case in point here is the "Reegen Micro-Plug". It costs just under AU$200, but claims to save upwards of 30% of the energy usage of an electric motor (and therefore fridge, washing machine etc.). This device is being sold by various "green" companies who vouch for its efficacy, but Choice awarded it a 2009 "Shonky Product" award and said it did nothing. There is a degree of sense to such a device, in that power factor correction is indeed real, but that does not prove anything.
How are we supposed to know? A 30% saving is well worth having, but a $200 hole in my wallet with no result is not! "Choice" themselves are not always totally reliable, however. They have been known to get the wrong end of the stick from time to time, for various reasons.
Personal opinion is also open to question. After spending a wad of cash on an item, it's sometimes hard to admit that it doesn't work, as this is effectively an admission of being "conned". It's also true that personal opinion can just vary between individuals - I find LED lights to be useless (too little light) for anything except mood or accent lighting, but some people seem happy with them.
Does anybody know of a central repository of wisdom, based on testing and experience (not marketing) of "green" products? Alternatively, is anybody interested in starting one? It wouldn't be that hard to do. If 20 people each donate $10, a (for example) "Micro-Plug" could be purchased, tested and the results published . If it doesn't work it's only cost everybody $10, and if it works we can all rush out and buy them........ If the results were published only to people who have donated, then further donations could be used to purchase more gadgets to be tested, or indeed gadgets to test (light meters, for example). I suppose this is where "Choice" started, but it seems to have got rather large and politically motivated, where I am thinking of a smaller far more directed ("efficiency") group.
Any thoughts?
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Re: Energy Saving Gadgets - Do They Work?
by Tracker » Mon Nov 30, 2009 4:25 pm
Power Factor Correctors, whilst sounding plausible, are one of those "Black Boxes" that we wish for, but wonder "Could they possibly work?"
Power Factor Correction is designed to vary the reactance of the power circuit such that VOLTAGE and CURRENT, are in phase.. We all know about capacitors in flouro-lights and how they might exist in Industrial lights but not domestic ones.. Why - because in the domestic situation, the cost savings in Electricity, are swamped by the parts cost.
From an Electrical instructor -- "In order to correct PowerFactor you new to sample the Current and the Voltage, and vary the reactance (usually capacitance) to make I and V in phase."
That is a long winded way of saying that there is little chance that a PLUGIN device could ever do anything practical, as it will only be looking at the voltage. If can't measure current.
It might be able to sweep the circuit with a variable capacitance and then look for a voltage drop that "Might" indicate a phase conjunction of V and I, but I for one can't imaging that it would be effective.
Now - if you find a device that mounts in the power-box and connects inline/after the meter, then I would sit up and take interest. That way there is the possibility of reading both V and I.
The situation to me is the same as these "Pest-Free" plugins.
We refuse to use broad-use Cockroach sprays and hence rely on baits etc...
We have a Pest-Free device that "Buzzes the wires" supposedly to "Drive the bugs nuts"
I walked into the kitchen last night to see a mouse smiling at me whilst sitting right under the device and a few cockies running for cover. Bar-Hum-Bug ! they don't work !
PS - I just Googled the contraption and found a video of it's operation. (Reegen Micro-Plug)
I am wrong about one thing in that is that it does connect between the power and the appliance and the video show something dropping, so it could be sampling I and V. It's showing Either power or current??
The issue is that with just one unloaded motor connected , it took 40 seconds to stabilise.. If it needs one device for each appliance, then it's going to be very expensive to cover a house. I think that I would believe Choice in this case !
Power Factor Correction is designed to vary the reactance of the power circuit such that VOLTAGE and CURRENT, are in phase.. We all know about capacitors in flouro-lights and how they might exist in Industrial lights but not domestic ones.. Why - because in the domestic situation, the cost savings in Electricity, are swamped by the parts cost.
From an Electrical instructor -- "In order to correct PowerFactor you new to sample the Current and the Voltage, and vary the reactance (usually capacitance) to make I and V in phase."
That is a long winded way of saying that there is little chance that a PLUGIN device could ever do anything practical, as it will only be looking at the voltage. If can't measure current.
It might be able to sweep the circuit with a variable capacitance and then look for a voltage drop that "Might" indicate a phase conjunction of V and I, but I for one can't imaging that it would be effective.
Now - if you find a device that mounts in the power-box and connects inline/after the meter, then I would sit up and take interest. That way there is the possibility of reading both V and I.
The situation to me is the same as these "Pest-Free" plugins.
We refuse to use broad-use Cockroach sprays and hence rely on baits etc...
We have a Pest-Free device that "Buzzes the wires" supposedly to "Drive the bugs nuts"
I walked into the kitchen last night to see a mouse smiling at me whilst sitting right under the device and a few cockies running for cover. Bar-Hum-Bug ! they don't work !
PS - I just Googled the contraption and found a video of it's operation. (Reegen Micro-Plug)
I am wrong about one thing in that is that it does connect between the power and the appliance and the video show something dropping, so it could be sampling I and V. It's showing Either power or current??
The issue is that with just one unloaded motor connected , it took 40 seconds to stabilise.. If it needs one device for each appliance, then it's going to be very expensive to cover a house. I think that I would believe Choice in this case !
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Re: Energy Saving Gadgets - Do They Work?
by zzsstt » Mon Nov 30, 2009 6:28 pmTracker wrote:PS - I just Googled the contraption and found a video of it's operation. (Reegen Micro-Plug)
I am wrong about one thing in that is that it does connect between the power and the appliance and the video show something dropping, so it could be sampling I and V. It's showing Either power or current??
The issue is that with just one unloaded motor connected , it took 40 seconds to stabilise.. If it needs one device for each appliance, then it's going to be very expensive to cover a house. I think that I would believe Choice in this case !
And therein lies the problem. Choice admitted it showed a 5% reduction in power used by an electric drill, so it is doing something. The concept of power factor correction is entirely reasonable, though of course domestic users are charged based on kW and not kVA, so PF is not currently (no pun intended) a billable issue for them. "Black boxes" that reduce the running voltage of commercial sized strings of fluoro lights are real, and can show a power reduction in certain circumstances. Black boxes that correct the power factor of larger electric motors and adjust their speed to maintain efficiency are real (I have an 18.8kW motor using under 8kW with a 0.98 power factor on just such a system).
If Choice's methodology involved testing on modern appliances that are already "tuned" towards efficiency, then they might have seen less improvement than (for example) someone using an electric pump or an older less efficient appliance. So, potentially, there is a saving to be made. The size of that saving and it's financial viability are separate issues - 5% on an electric drill will never recoup the financial cost of the unit, 5% on a 2kW pump that runs 10 hours a day and the unit pays for itself in 3 years. More importantly, for those concerned with "carbon", it is a significant reduction in emissions. Of course there is always the possibility it doesn't work at all!
My point was more general, however. This is just one of many devices that may or may not work. In the case of the cheaper ones, an individual can buy them and throw them away if they don't work, and in the case of the more "way out" ideas, an individual can probably write them off as quackery. Obviously some will also fall in to the "too good to be true" basket. But then there are the ones that conceivably just might work, but are too expensive to buy on the off-chance............
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Re: Energy Saving Gadgets - Do They Work?
by taggertycyclist » Mon Nov 30, 2009 6:57 pm
All this talk of black boxes smacks on the late Peter Brock!
Any industry that has become the darling of one set or another is bound to attract the charlatans willing to con anyone. And you are right in that having spent a bundle on a product that isn't working, a buyer isn't really going to admit s/he was wrong.
I would have thought a Standards approval would be a starting point with any of these devices. And because they are being used on 240-volt equipment, surely there is a requirement for other approvals by electrical authorities to be bought.... err, sorry, granted. If a device doesn't work when getting those approvals, surely it behoves the tester to reveal this and to withhold approval.
I read last night an article related to another product unrelated to solar (in fact, Apple agents possibly refusing warranty claims on computers affected by the smoke of cigarettes) that in Victoria at least, a consumer has a right of return/refund if an item doesn't do the job that was promoted or advertised.
Then we come back to the conundrum of how an ordinary consumer without much or any technical expertise can prove that a particular electrical device like the one specified doesn't work...
Any industry that has become the darling of one set or another is bound to attract the charlatans willing to con anyone. And you are right in that having spent a bundle on a product that isn't working, a buyer isn't really going to admit s/he was wrong.
I would have thought a Standards approval would be a starting point with any of these devices. And because they are being used on 240-volt equipment, surely there is a requirement for other approvals by electrical authorities to be bought.... err, sorry, granted. If a device doesn't work when getting those approvals, surely it behoves the tester to reveal this and to withhold approval.
I read last night an article related to another product unrelated to solar (in fact, Apple agents possibly refusing warranty claims on computers affected by the smoke of cigarettes) that in Victoria at least, a consumer has a right of return/refund if an item doesn't do the job that was promoted or advertised.
Then we come back to the conundrum of how an ordinary consumer without much or any technical expertise can prove that a particular electrical device like the one specified doesn't work...
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Re: Energy Saving Gadgets - Do They Work?
by zzsstt » Mon Nov 30, 2009 9:50 pmtaggertycyclist wrote:Then we come back to the conundrum of how an ordinary consumer without much or any technical expertise can prove that a particular electrical device like the one specified doesn't work...
...and having decided it doesn't work, how they "persuade" a company to refund their money, given that the integrity of that company is under question if they have sold a "green" product that does not actually work!
In this case the testing is quite easy, however. Anyone with a PowerMate ($100 to $350+, depending on the version purchased) can simply select a variety of situations to test, say a fridge, a washing machine, a water pump (or swimming pool pump) and an air conditioner, and test the power consumed with and without the "gadget" installed. Any reductions become quickly apparent. As I suggested earlier, in a forum like this the results of such testing can be quickly shared, removing the need for everyone to own a PowerMate. If the "gadget" to be tested is a joint purchase, nobody has to spend a fortune to prove its efficacy, and having only spent a few dollars nobody is likely to get the "spent a lot of money, can't admit it's junk" problem.
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Re: Energy Saving Gadgets - Do They Work?
by SR76 » Mon Nov 30, 2009 10:57 pm
Here's some good reading material to begin with:
http://www.dansdata.com/personal/quacks.htm
http://www.dansdata.com/empower.htm
And on PF correction in general:
http://www.dansdata.com/gz088.htm
Dans Data is a huge website full of techno-geek goodness and has much to say about such products. Just keep following the endless maze of hyperlinks for your own entertainment. I've lost hours on it.
http://www.dansdata.com/personal/quacks.htm
http://www.dansdata.com/empower.htm
And on PF correction in general:
http://www.dansdata.com/gz088.htm
Dans Data is a huge website full of techno-geek goodness and has much to say about such products. Just keep following the endless maze of hyperlinks for your own entertainment. I've lost hours on it.
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Re: Energy Saving Gadgets - Do They Work?
by zzsstt » Tue Dec 01, 2009 7:46 amSR76 wrote:Here's some good reading material to begin with:
http://www.dansdata.com/personal/quacks.htm
http://www.dansdata.com/empower.htm
And on PF correction in general:
http://www.dansdata.com/gz088.htm
Dans Data is a huge website full of techno-geek goodness and has much to say about such products. Just keep following the endless maze of hyperlinks for your own entertainment. I've lost hours on it.
Dansdata has historically been a very good site. I used to use it when it was largely (entirely?) computer related, and was (more or less) just a list of CPU heatsink performance data. In the days before we needed to worry about power usage I used to fool around building massively overclocked water cooled computers. Oh, and performance cars.........
These days "Dan" gets in to everything, and sometimes misses the point in his attempts to be cool. In the case of the EMP, I entirely agree with him, however. But the machine we are talking about here is slightly different, and as I mentioned above, even Choice admitted it did do something.
Actually, reading the Dansdata articles above made me think. Very early in the piece he says (and indeed I also said earlier in this thread) that domestic users do not get charged by kVa, so power factor does not matter. His comment is that "spinning disc meters" measure kW. Which started me thinking...... I do not have a spinning disc meter, I have an electronic time of use meter (albeit that all the times are charged at the same "peak" rate). Do electronic meters measure kW or KVA? More interesting is that this meter is IDENTICAL to a commercial/business meter sitting next to it (we have a 3 phase domestic supply). So in fact the measurement basis is the same for both..... I must investigate this further!
The other issue with power in general, and power factor specifically, is that everyone's profile is different. Some devices have a far worse PF than others, motors being normally fairly poor. A city apartment dweller using a clothes washing service will run very few electric motors, perhaps a fridge/freezer, a small pump in a dishwasher and that's about it. On the other hand, someone living beyond the range of mains sewage systems will use more motors. Not only the washing machine (+dryer?), fridge, possibly multiple freezers etc., but also water pumps for domestic water, water transfer, irrigation, bore pumps, possibly pumps and air blowers for sewage treatment systems, pool pumps etc.. Then we have all the harmonic distortion issues that may have an affect on people with large numbers of electronic devices.
What this means is that even if we disregard the outright nonsense (like the EMP tested by Dan), there is a genuine possibility that what works for one person may not work for another, simply because of differing usage. Unfortunately this also means that a "simple" test of a device like the Micro-Plug may not be sufficient to write it off. Perhaps it doesn't work on a modern washing machine, but does on a water pump? I am not, by the way, a particular supporter of that unit, I've never even seen one in the flesh. But I am interested in knowing whether it, and many of the other "energy saving" gadgets do actually work. We can't rely on the sales people - as we all know, even those who appear genuinely interested in the "environment" are at the end of the day only trying to make money!
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Re: Energy Saving Gadgets - Do They Work?
by KarenS » Fri Dec 04, 2009 1:55 am
Saw something in one of the Melbourne papers in the last couple of weeks (sorry, can't give an exact reference, as I scan both daily papers 7 days/week for my brother's work-related purposes 
) that some public libraries have PowerMates available for loan!
As a pensioner, I'm always looking for things to save money, and this one has to be great if you happen to have one of those libraries near you! I have to consult my local library on another matter which will take a bit of digging and rummaging, so I will also ask about this when I go pester them at the weekend.
) that some public libraries have PowerMates available for loan!As a pensioner, I'm always looking for things to save money, and this one has to be great if you happen to have one of those libraries near you! I have to consult my local library on another matter which will take a bit of digging and rummaging, so I will also ask about this when I go pester them at the weekend.
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Re: Energy Saving Gadgets - Do They Work?
by Joey » Fri Dec 04, 2009 5:32 am
I would have to say the most effective power saving device on the market is the power switch , unfortunately so many people just cannot grasp this simple concept yet.
There is no plug-in gadget in existence that can go between the supply and the source that can reduce the sources consumption. ( apart from an off switch )
Fortunately manufactures are becoming more aware that people are demanding more efficient devices where as before it was never a concern.
I don't think there is any such thing as an energy saving gadget , just newer gadgets that are more efficient than what they are replacing.
Power Factor Correction contraptions have no place in the domestic market , Some here might remember the user "Gyro" ,many of the scam websites referenced in his posts are selling these devices claiming to reduce home power bills by up to 60% , there are many more websites that completely dispel these scams and myths.
If you google these devices you will notice pre-packaged $5 websites popping up all over Australia making outrageous claims playing on peoples gullibility that they will be saving the planet , not to mention thousands of dollars ! Within a few years I wouldn't be surprised if you can buy these devices in supermarkets and salesmen will say they make the picture on your new LCD much clearer and cheaper to run.
These things are also being plugged by mum and dad work from home businesses , only qualification being that of not having any factual knowledge of what these devices really are.
Hows this for a brainwave " Once this device is installed , by raising the temperature on your Air Con in Summer from 23 deg to 25 deg will save you hundreds of dollars" !! WOW .
There is no plug-in gadget in existence that can go between the supply and the source that can reduce the sources consumption. ( apart from an off switch )
Fortunately manufactures are becoming more aware that people are demanding more efficient devices where as before it was never a concern.
I don't think there is any such thing as an energy saving gadget , just newer gadgets that are more efficient than what they are replacing.
Power Factor Correction contraptions have no place in the domestic market , Some here might remember the user "Gyro" ,many of the scam websites referenced in his posts are selling these devices claiming to reduce home power bills by up to 60% , there are many more websites that completely dispel these scams and myths.
If you google these devices you will notice pre-packaged $5 websites popping up all over Australia making outrageous claims playing on peoples gullibility that they will be saving the planet , not to mention thousands of dollars ! Within a few years I wouldn't be surprised if you can buy these devices in supermarkets and salesmen will say they make the picture on your new LCD much clearer and cheaper to run.
These things are also being plugged by mum and dad work from home businesses , only qualification being that of not having any factual knowledge of what these devices really are.
Hows this for a brainwave " Once this device is installed , by raising the temperature on your Air Con in Summer from 23 deg to 25 deg will save you hundreds of dollars" !! WOW .
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Re: Energy Saving Gadgets - Do They Work?
by zzsstt » Fri Dec 04, 2009 7:47 amJoey wrote:I would have to say the most effective power saving device on the market is the power switch , unfortunately so many people just cannot grasp this simple concept yet.
Entirely true, but only approprate when a device is not required to be used.
Joey wrote:There is no plug-in gadget in existence that can go between the supply and the source that can reduce the sources consumption. ( apart from an off switch ).
Not true at all. There are many devices that can reduce the power consumed. Whether these are "plug in" units simply comes down to wiring. I have many electric motors, in one case a motor rated at 18.8kW is actually consuming about 8kW on a VFD. Now obviously this reduction is becuase the motor is controlled to produce (and therefore consume) the amount of power required to do the job at that time, but without the VFD it would be wasting a great deal of power under many conditions.
Another example is (magnetic ballasted) fluoro lights. The ballast requires a high voltage to start the tube, but once started the voltage can be dropped and the power wasted by the ballast (the least efficient part of the unit) therefore reduced. This is effectively what an electronic ballast (like those used on T5 tubes) does, but in the case of a string of magnetic ballast fluoro's, a plug in box can apparently do this. I have not used one myself (preferring the T5 approach), but the science behind it is genuine.
It is in fact entirely possible that a plug-in device can save power. Whether it does this by reducing the power spike consumed a start up, lowering the voltage supplied to a device, managing the speed of a device or any other method, the point is that these things are possible.
The first question is whether a specific example of such a device works, or is a con, and the second question is whether it makes any material difference. Reducing the power used by a fluoro tube by 20%, whether by changing to a T5 with electronic ballast or installing a device to reduce the voltage after start-up, when the tube used 28W to start with is a questionable gain (6W). However a small shop using 200 such tubes (saving 1.1kW) or a supermarket with thousands of them may make a very large saving.
Energy Saving Gadgets - Do They Work?
Re: Energy Saving Gadgets - Do They Work?
by Joey » Fri Dec 04, 2009 3:42 pm
zzsstt , I am specifically referring to the domestic market , commercial is a different story especially in the case of large electric motors.
The saving on anything else like Fluro lighting by using the magic box is a false economy when the replacement costs of later solid state ballasts without starters are so cheap in comparison.
The saving on anything else like Fluro lighting by using the magic box is a false economy when the replacement costs of later solid state ballasts without starters are so cheap in comparison.
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Re: Energy Saving Gadgets - Do They Work?
by zzsstt » Fri Dec 04, 2009 5:07 pmJoey wrote:zzsstt , I am specifically referring to the domestic market , commercial is a different story especially in the case of large electric motors.
The saving on anything else like Fluro lighting by using the magic box is a false economy when the replacement costs of later solid state ballasts without starters are so cheap in comparison.
"So cheap" depends on the quantity and relative savings, but as you say, domestic is very different both in scale of use and in size of individual device.
The cheapest "aftermarket" electronic ballasts of a reasonable quality were the (now discontinued) Osram EZ-Plus units, which Osram themselves quote as costing $25 each installed, but If you drag an electrician out to do a single unit it's unlikely you'd get away with $25! They suggest a power saving of 24% with such a device. As these devices are discontinued (a new equivalent product will be released in February, apparently) the only other options are more expensive.
Alternatively a new 2x28W T5 unit will cost about $75 plus installation, or $90 for 2x54W T5. The 2x28W unit should save power compared to standard 2x36W T8's with magnetic ballasts.
BUT...... when you can install a "magic box" for $8K that will run all 400 odd existing luminaires in a commercial environment, save the same amount of power as electronic ballasts of T5 fittings and takes 15 minutes to install, that's a fair bit cheaper than 400 * $25 ($10K) and much cheaper than 400 * 75 plus labour ($30K +labour) for T5's.
Now, I must say that my first choice here would be T5's, second would be electronic starts and last would be the "magic box", but I'm not the customer in this case!
For domestic users, I agree with you, except that a new T5 fitting gives the benefits of a modern luminaire with better inherent efficiency (and clean!) as well as new tubes and an electronic ballast for little more than the cost of an electronic started.
With domestic motors I'm not sure. I have several pumps that supply all my domestic water. A pressure pump that is too small cannot keep up when too many taps are turned on (shower + toilet = ouch!). On the other hand, too big a pump wastes power. I have yet to do the math on a domestic scale VFD!
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Re: Energy Saving Gadgets - Do They Work?
by Tracker » Fri Dec 04, 2009 6:03 pm
Some general observations!
Does that have any meaning?? The Current (ie Power), is determined by the load.. The 10Kw drop could hardly be attributed PF correction.
I suspect that you could just add a fixed CAP, and achieve a similar figure.. With that sham device in the video, it could have no general benefit for normal appliances because of their intermittent operation. It could have an effect on a pool-pump which is run for hours.
zzsstt wrote:(I have an 18.8kW motor using under 8kW with a 0.98 power factor on just such a system)
Does that have any meaning?? The Current (ie Power), is determined by the load.. The 10Kw drop could hardly be attributed PF correction.
zzsstt wrote:And therein lies the problem. Choice admitted it showed a 5% reduction in power used by an electric drill, so it is doing something.
I suspect that you could just add a fixed CAP, and achieve a similar figure.. With that sham device in the video, it could have no general benefit for normal appliances because of their intermittent operation. It could have an effect on a pool-pump which is run for hours.
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Re: Energy Saving Gadgets - Do They Work?
by Joey » Sat Dec 05, 2009 2:51 amzzsstt wrote:Joey wrote:zzsstt , I am specifically referring to the domestic market , commercial is a different story especially in the case of large electric motors.
The saving on anything else like Fluro lighting by using the magic box is a false economy when the replacement costs of later solid state ballasts without starters are so cheap in comparison.
"So cheap" depends on the quantity and relative savings, but as you say, domestic is very different both in scale of use and in size of individual device.
The cheapest "aftermarket" electronic ballasts of a reasonable quality were the (now discontinued) Osram EZ-Plus units, which Osram themselves quote as costing $25 each installed, but If you drag an electrician out to do a single unit it's unlikely you'd get away with $25! They suggest a power saving of 24% with such a device. As these devices are discontinued (a new equivalent product will be released in February, apparently) the only other options are more expensive.
Alternatively a new 2x28W T5 unit will cost about $75 plus installation, or $90 for 2x54W T5. The 2x28W unit should save power compared to standard 2x36W T8's with magnetic ballasts.
BUT...... when you can install a "magic box" for $8K that will run all 400 odd existing luminaires in a commercial environment, save the same amount of power as electronic ballasts of T5 fittings and takes 15 minutes to install, that's a fair bit cheaper than 400 * $25 ($10K) and much cheaper than 400 * 75 plus labour ($30K +labour) for T5's.
Now, I must say that my first choice here would be T5's, second would be electronic starts and last would be the "magic box", but I'm not the customer in this case!
For domestic users, I agree with you, except that a new T5 fitting gives the benefits of a modern luminaire with better inherent efficiency (and clean!) as well as new tubes and an electronic ballast for little more than the cost of an electronic started.
With domestic motors I'm not sure. I have several pumps that supply all my domestic water. A pressure pump that is too small cannot keep up when too many taps are turned on (shower + toilet = ouch!). On the other hand, too big a pump wastes power. I have yet to do the math on a domestic scale VFD!
Those costs look like they were calculated by a salesman selling PF correction devices , No one is going to get an electrician out to change a single ballast , I recently had all mine changed for solid state units , 18 dual fittings , The ballasts cost me $7.15 each , all of the ballasts and tubes were changed in an hour and half , call out and labor was $135.00 total.
Complete new dual T5 units would have cost me $36 each without defusers.
Also I am glad tracker bought up those dubious figure regarding the 18.8KW motor , If it is only using 8Kwh it is not under full load , you are presenting these figures expecting us to believe it was Drawing 18.8Kw and with the magic box in place it has dropped to 8kw , about a 60% reduction , anyone who believes that rubbish would have to smoking some funny type or weed !
There is a good website that illustrates the savings for a domestic motors , in this case a washing machine and the massive $0.04 saving over a year!
Power Factor Correction devices are absolutely useless for domestic purposes , the savings in commercial applications are also very small! 8K for a black box full of Caps what an absolute SCAM.
This website clearly points out what most people already knew about this scam
http://www.nlcpr.com/Deceptions1.php
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Re: Energy Saving Gadgets - Do They Work?
by Tracker » Sat Dec 05, 2009 8:42 am
Joey - that's a great and easily understandable explanation of Power Factor.
Everyone should read it..
The most appropriate comment is...
So folks, in my mind, the issue is DEAD..
Yes - The energy Authorities would love us to correct our PF, IF we could, because it is they who are loosing.
Not the customer ! So - To spend hundreds to do it, is obviously uneconomical. AND - there is doubts that devices actually do what they claim.
Do you spend money on something that might not work, and will make no difference to your account, but "Might" make a tiny difference to the Energy Supplier?????
Everyone should read it..
The most appropriate comment is...
Residential customers are not penalized for having a low power factor. You will not save a single cent by using these devices in the home. It will not help your washing machine run better. The power factor is not on your electricity bill. While power factor correction is valid for many industrial customers who use large amounts of power, it is a deception when marketed to home owners as a way to save money on their electric bill.
So folks, in my mind, the issue is DEAD..
Yes - The energy Authorities would love us to correct our PF, IF we could, because it is they who are loosing.
Not the customer ! So - To spend hundreds to do it, is obviously uneconomical. AND - there is doubts that devices actually do what they claim.
Do you spend money on something that might not work, and will make no difference to your account, but "Might" make a tiny difference to the Energy Supplier?????
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Re: Energy Saving Gadgets - Do They Work?
by zzsstt » Sat Dec 05, 2009 9:07 amTracker wrote:Some general observations!zzsstt wrote:(I have an 18.8kW motor using under 8kW with a 0.98 power factor on just such a system)
Does that have any meaning?? The Current (ie Power), is determined by the load.. The 10Kw drop could hardly be attributed PF correction.
I did not say it had anything to do with PF correction, I simply said I have a motor that was optimised by a VFD, as an example of a "box" that reduced the power used by a motor.
In that particular case I have an electric motor rated at 18.8Kw which is required to be that size for peak loading. However peak loading only occurs infrequently, so for most of the time it would be running very inefficiently - electric motors power use depends partly on load, as you say, but their efficiency varies hugely. They tend to have a very narrow range where they perform reasonably efficiently, but outside this range they can be very poor. So a motor doing a specific and fixed job (like a bore pump with constant head and flow) can be spec'd to match those requirement, but a motor under varying load will be grossly inefficient for a lot of the time. By fitting a VFD, the motor in question is controlled such that it is fed what it needs to work at optimum efficiency whatever the load, and the VFD presents a 0.98 power factor to the supply.
Hence I am paying for what I use (optimum PF), and not paying for wastage caused by a motor running at very low efficiency for much of the time.
However, regarding PF more specifically, I have an old motor that under it's "normal" loading has a PF of 0.6 Using only PF correction, if we say that it would normally be using (by demand/KVA charging, it's "apparent" consmption) 18kW then power factor correction would reduce it's "charged" use to 10.8kW. That IS by PF correction alone. (Actually I simply don't use the motor, and it's not 18kW it's actually 65kW!)
In the case of the magic box I mentioned initially (the domestic device), then I agree with you - if you knew the size of capacitor required to correct the PF of a domestic motor (of worthwhile size and usage duration, lke the pool pump you mention) then you could use that cap to correct the PF. If you were charged "demand" (as apparently we all will be someday) and the PF was bad enough to start with, you would see an improvement.
My initial question, however, was more about how "we" consumers are supposed to know if these kind of devices work.........
[edit after posting: to clarify further the above statement, when I say "these kind of devices" I do not mean specifically PF correctors or electronic widgets, I am talking about anything sold under the guise of "green" or "efficient". How do we know?]
[edit before posting]
Regarding Joeys link to PF, and your quote from it, it is true that at present we do not have demand based domestic charging. But I believe that PF measurement was included in the Victorian Smart meters for 3 phase use, it was certainly recommended in the consulatation report. It is probably only a matter of time...
Last edited by zzsstt on Sat Dec 05, 2009 9:33 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Energy Saving Gadgets - Do They Work?
by zzsstt » Sat Dec 05, 2009 9:22 amJoey wrote:I recently had all mine changed for solid state units , 18 dual fittings , The ballasts cost me $7.15 each , all of the ballasts and tubes were changed in an hour and half , call out and labor was $135.00 total.
Complete new dual T5 units would have cost me $36 each without defusers.
Also I am glad tracker bought up those dubious figure regarding the 18.8KW motor , If it is only using 8Kwh it is not under full load , you are presenting these figures expecting us to believe it was Drawing 18.8Kw and with the magic box in place it has dropped to 8kw , about a 60% reduction , anyone who believes that rubbish would have to smoking some funny type or weed !
Joey,
Please PM me (or post here) where you can get new T5 units and electronic ballasts for the prices you quote, and their manufacturer and part numbers. I am not saying this for any reason other than that I will be buying them too! The normal price for an electronic ballast to suit 2x36W T8's is about $27 to $30, so if you got them for $7 I want some! Or are you talking about electronic starters?
Regarding power factor correction - no, of course it is not worthwhile for domestic users. As I am sure I said somewhere earlier, domestic users (in NSW) are not charged "demand", the bills are kWh and therefore PF is not relevant. I believe that some of the Smart Meters being rolled out in Victoria are KVA based, but I am not certain (I'm in NSW).
For industrial users PF correction is most certainly important, and to suggest otherwise is bizarre. If I am charged "demand" (kva), then a 5kW motor with a power factor of .7, running at full load will be charged at
5 / 0.7 = 7.1kW
Such a motor running for 40 hours a week would be charged $2080 (10400kWh) in a year, but $2971 (10400 / 0.7) based on demand.
A 10kW motor with PF of 0.6 would be charged as though it were a 16.7kW motor.
Second to this, of course, is that the cabling needs to cater for the apparent power supplied, not the actual power. This is why the power companies have issues with low power factors - they have to oversize their infrastructure to support the low PF. For an industrial user, this means that a cable could potentially be far more expensive than would seem to be required. A long run of cable, spec'd to give a <5% voltage drop for a reasonable load, may need to move up a size to allow for a poor PF and copper ain't cheap (100m 35mm XLPE is $860, 100m of 50mm XLPE is $1100). The local infrastructure is paid for by the user, but the grid is paid for by everyone in their electricity bills.
Many cheap switch mode power supplies display poor power factors and various other negative effects.
It is actually illegal to present an overall load to the grid with a PF of less than 0.9
A combination of the above facts would explain why all the energy efficiency standards, even those covering "domestic" devices like 80 Plus, now specify minimum power factors for devices (0.9 in the case of 80 Plus).
If you believe that PF correction is not important, perhaps you don't run any motors on commercial (demand) meters?
However, once again this is not the question I originally posted. I used one specific example of a device that was out of the price range of "if it doesn't work it doesn't matter" to ask how the ordinary consumer is supposed to know what devices or techniques actually save energy.
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Re: Energy Saving Gadgets - Do They Work?
by bradley.jarvis » Tue Dec 08, 2009 10:35 am
From what I understand VFD's work well because they can optimise the running parameters of the drive efficiently since they control the supply voltage/frequency (some make some pretty nice waveforms, for example space vector control which save power). This is not really something that you could do with a fridge because the fridge is optimised by the manufacturer (hopefully, I believe with the advent of cheap motor control components you'll probably find that a lot of household items with motors will have VFD built-in). The motor power draw will depend on load.
I would like to see what choice had to say about the output power of the drill, for example if the actual drilling power also dropped when the device was plugged in. In this case the device could actually be wasting more power. At the end of the day power consumption is different to efficiency and the two should not be confused.
Power consumption is simply the amount of power a device uses in total, power efficiency is the amount of power that is turned into useful energy and not wasted in heat/noise etc. A plug-in device would not be able to measure efficiency.
In answering the original question I think that it would be very difficult to find a useful plug-in gadget to improve efficiency to the point that it would be worthwhile to buy, and you would definitely have to define what you are trying to achieve by buying the product. For example with lighting, you would be better off trying to maximise the best light source we have, the sun, before looking at making artificial lighting better. You would look at improving the light over workspaces before improving general factory lighting etc.
PS. I am an embedded hardware/software engineer who is currently working with an Australian Induction motor manufacturer on an integrated VFD motor.
I would like to see what choice had to say about the output power of the drill, for example if the actual drilling power also dropped when the device was plugged in. In this case the device could actually be wasting more power. At the end of the day power consumption is different to efficiency and the two should not be confused.
Power consumption is simply the amount of power a device uses in total, power efficiency is the amount of power that is turned into useful energy and not wasted in heat/noise etc. A plug-in device would not be able to measure efficiency.
In answering the original question I think that it would be very difficult to find a useful plug-in gadget to improve efficiency to the point that it would be worthwhile to buy, and you would definitely have to define what you are trying to achieve by buying the product. For example with lighting, you would be better off trying to maximise the best light source we have, the sun, before looking at making artificial lighting better. You would look at improving the light over workspaces before improving general factory lighting etc.
PS. I am an embedded hardware/software engineer who is currently working with an Australian Induction motor manufacturer on an integrated VFD motor.
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Re: Energy Saving Gadgets - Do They Work?
by dcstar » Tue Dec 08, 2009 12:18 pm
My local Bunnings (Port Melbourne) had controlled power boards on their run-out table a week ago for a few dollars.
These have one power outlet control the power to the other outlets - so now only when my PC is powered up all the other things that are only needed when my PC is on are also powered up, instead of consuming useless "Standby power".
People can also use these on the TV/Entertainment systems - a simple, cheap "Energy Saving Gadget".
These have one power outlet control the power to the other outlets - so now only when my PC is powered up all the other things that are only needed when my PC is on are also powered up, instead of consuming useless "Standby power".
People can also use these on the TV/Entertainment systems - a simple, cheap "Energy Saving Gadget".
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Re: Energy Saving Gadgets - Do They Work?
by zzsstt » Tue Dec 08, 2009 12:34 pm
Once again, you are entirely correct in everything you say.
However, my question relates not just to this "Micro-Plug" device, but to all energy saving gadgets.
I have a PowerMate. Anything that I can afford to buy, I can test to see whether it makes any difference.
So, for example, I have a powerboard with a big OFF switch. I can plug in to it all the little PSU's for USB hubs, speakers etc. that accumulate around a PC, and I can see (with the PowerMate), how much power I am saving. It turns out that for most of the PSU's, it's not very much - at 2W a PSU will use about $3.40 a year, so the powerboard "saves" $8 or so each year, but cost maybe $30 to buy. Financially not worthwhile but it makes me feel better.
On the other hand, Harvey Norman have a powerboard that has a remote control. It can remotely switch off 6 of it's sockets, whilst leaving two powered up - the idea is to leave your PVR and cable/sat TV boxes powered up whilst removing the standby use on the other "home theatre" boxes. Now this device must use power itself, so reducing any saving, and it costs $250....... I have not tested it's own power use and logic alone tells me that for that price it's not worthwhile!
You can buy a "Future Switch" kit that has a remote control and 2 sockets for about $60. If used to feed a powerboard it will remove the standby load of any number of items, and as there are two "plug/socket" units, it will do so in two locations. It also uses some power, but costs 80% less and covers two locations. I have not tested it's own power use. (I have one on order and will test it when it arrives).
LED lights use far less power than conventional lighting, we are told. The last time I tried them I couldn't see my hand in front of my face.........
A friend of mine bought an automatic powerboard that detected the load on one of it's sockets and when the device connect to that socket was powered down (or to standby), the powerboard switched the other sockets off. It switched them back on when the "master" socket device was powered up again.When tested, the powerboard itself was using a continuous 12W, which was more than the standby loads of the devices it was bught to control.....that powerboard was returned to the saleman! There are various brands making similar devices, perhaps some are better than others?
My point is that unless we buy these devices, we only have the saleman's word that they will save us money, whether they are a powerboard, a "Micro-Plug" or an LED light.
I was, in a round about way, suggesting that any of us that have such devices could post our results. Moreover, for the more expensive ones we could purchase one as a joint venture to test - if it's worthwhile we can then purchase them for ourselves, and if not then nobody has lost much money.
Either the point was lost (perhaps I should have been more direct) or nobody is interested.......
However, my question relates not just to this "Micro-Plug" device, but to all energy saving gadgets.
I have a PowerMate. Anything that I can afford to buy, I can test to see whether it makes any difference.
So, for example, I have a powerboard with a big OFF switch. I can plug in to it all the little PSU's for USB hubs, speakers etc. that accumulate around a PC, and I can see (with the PowerMate), how much power I am saving. It turns out that for most of the PSU's, it's not very much - at 2W a PSU will use about $3.40 a year, so the powerboard "saves" $8 or so each year, but cost maybe $30 to buy. Financially not worthwhile but it makes me feel better.
On the other hand, Harvey Norman have a powerboard that has a remote control. It can remotely switch off 6 of it's sockets, whilst leaving two powered up - the idea is to leave your PVR and cable/sat TV boxes powered up whilst removing the standby use on the other "home theatre" boxes. Now this device must use power itself, so reducing any saving, and it costs $250....... I have not tested it's own power use and logic alone tells me that for that price it's not worthwhile!
You can buy a "Future Switch" kit that has a remote control and 2 sockets for about $60. If used to feed a powerboard it will remove the standby load of any number of items, and as there are two "plug/socket" units, it will do so in two locations. It also uses some power, but costs 80% less and covers two locations. I have not tested it's own power use. (I have one on order and will test it when it arrives).
LED lights use far less power than conventional lighting, we are told. The last time I tried them I couldn't see my hand in front of my face.........
A friend of mine bought an automatic powerboard that detected the load on one of it's sockets and when the device connect to that socket was powered down (or to standby), the powerboard switched the other sockets off. It switched them back on when the "master" socket device was powered up again.When tested, the powerboard itself was using a continuous 12W, which was more than the standby loads of the devices it was bught to control.....that powerboard was returned to the saleman! There are various brands making similar devices, perhaps some are better than others?
My point is that unless we buy these devices, we only have the saleman's word that they will save us money, whether they are a powerboard, a "Micro-Plug" or an LED light.
I was, in a round about way, suggesting that any of us that have such devices could post our results. Moreover, for the more expensive ones we could purchase one as a joint venture to test - if it's worthwhile we can then purchase them for ourselves, and if not then nobody has lost much money.
Either the point was lost (perhaps I should have been more direct) or nobody is interested.......
Re: Energy Saving Gadgets - Do They Work?
by zzsstt » Tue Dec 08, 2009 12:40 pmdcstar wrote:My local Bunnings (Port Melbourne) had controlled power boards on their run-out table a week ago for a few dollars.
These have one power outlet control the power to the other outlets - so now only when my PC is powered up all the other things that are only needed when my PC is on are also powered up, instead of consuming useless "Standby power".
People can also use these on the TV/Entertainment systems - a simple, cheap "Energy Saving Gadget".
Have you tested it to see how much power it uses to perform its function? As I said in my previous post (which I was writing when you posted), a friend of mine had one of these that used more power than all the devices he wanted to switch off with it!
I am perfectly willing to believe that some of these powerboards are better than others, so yours may well be fine. If you have (or can get access to) a PowerMate, please test it and let me know the Brand, model and power usage.....
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Re: Energy Saving Gadgets - Do They Work?
by bradley.jarvis » Tue Dec 08, 2009 1:30 pm
hehe, yes the point has been lost a bit (maybe posting an example was a bad idea, creates a focus to try and fix something). I would be happy to post results from what we are using and found to work somewhere on the net. I think instead of having one group that does the testing, maybe try and coax a review from someone who has already bought a product. Maybe make registration to the site based upon reviewing/placing feed back on items reviewed. Although this does not get around reviewing expensive items, and having the equipment to properly test the unit. My Solar charger/regulator will measure power (V, A and Kw) but then I wouldn't be able to use anything while reviewing a product, however for things like a power board this wouldn't be too much of a problem since the test would be quite short.
I suppose the other way to do it is to have a loaner Powermate or similar which part of the conditions for loaning is to write a review on all the devices tested.
I use the 3W XCree led downlights (they use 3.5W, 0.5W for some internal electronics), both the warm and cool white with 60degree viewing angle(cool output more light). I have removed the lens off the front to get a better dispersal of light. For me they provide adequate lighting and are ok to read under at night. They are available from Jaycar. They are rated to 50,000hrs, there is supposed to be a degradation of light over time, just like fluros.These save us lots of power since, they are low current so we have used standard 240V 2 core(red/white) cable to the light switches and then back to the batteries with virtually no voltage drop. The are 12V AC(work from 6V upto at least 15V with no variation in brightness) so it's easy to hookup dual switching like you would with a standard 240V globe.
I suppose the other way to do it is to have a loaner Powermate or similar which part of the conditions for loaning is to write a review on all the devices tested.
I use the 3W XCree led downlights (they use 3.5W, 0.5W for some internal electronics), both the warm and cool white with 60degree viewing angle(cool output more light). I have removed the lens off the front to get a better dispersal of light. For me they provide adequate lighting and are ok to read under at night. They are available from Jaycar. They are rated to 50,000hrs, there is supposed to be a degradation of light over time, just like fluros.These save us lots of power since, they are low current so we have used standard 240V 2 core(red/white) cable to the light switches and then back to the batteries with virtually no voltage drop. The are 12V AC(work from 6V upto at least 15V with no variation in brightness) so it's easy to hookup dual switching like you would with a standard 240V globe.
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Re: Energy Saving Gadgets - Do They Work?
by Tracker » Fri Dec 18, 2009 6:50 pm
Well, talking about gadgets, I came across this little magic box on EBAY.
This one just has to be a shonky one
http://cgi.ebay.com/Power-Energy-Save-E ... 2a0350c63b
Assuming that it is supposed to be a PowerFactor corrector (What else could it be), there is no way that it could work.. This is the type of device that I warned about, because it just plugs into a normal GPO.
You can only correct PowerFactor, if you know the current.. Just plugging this thing into a GPO can only measure circuit voltage.
Interesting that they say there is a 6 mths guarantee.. FROM MALAYSIA ???
Don't touch it !
This one just has to be a shonky one
http://cgi.ebay.com/Power-Energy-Save-E ... 2a0350c63b
- PowerTune
Assuming that it is supposed to be a PowerFactor corrector (What else could it be), there is no way that it could work.. This is the type of device that I warned about, because it just plugs into a normal GPO.
You can only correct PowerFactor, if you know the current.. Just plugging this thing into a GPO can only measure circuit voltage.
Interesting that they say there is a 6 mths guarantee.. FROM MALAYSIA ???
Don't touch it !
Retired Engineer and keen PV experimenter. . . .. . . . Always ready to learn and share.
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Governments won't save the world...............They will just TAX it.
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Governments won't save the world...............They will just TAX it.
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Re: Energy Saving Gadgets - Do They Work?
by BraelynRajiya » Mon Feb 22, 2010 10:42 pm
Lights that only go on when someone is in the room and moving about will save on the energy they use. Some gadgets simply work better like the energy saver lights which use less electric energy to produce the same intensity of light. Incandescent light bulbs produce heat as well as light so that in many cases the heat does not useful work or provides no benefit.
Re: Energy Saving Gadgets - Do They Work?
by MadMax » Tue Feb 23, 2010 9:21 amTracker wrote:Interesting that they say there is a 6 mths guarantee.. FROM MALAYSIA ???
Don't touch it !
but it has a hologram!!
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